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Dreamcatcher__ 87M
744 posts
5/20/2016 9:12 am

Last Read:
10/11/2023 10:14 pm

Trust and Faithfulness... an Alternate View


I originally posted this as a comment on someone else's blog, but it seemed so much like a credo I thought I would post it here and see what kind of reaction it would generate.

Words like "trust" or "faithful" are problematic for me. People think they can be applied objectively. I don't think so. I think trust is influenced by and depends on circumstances. It is transactional. I think faithfulness is a myth. In the first place it is in conflict with genetic programming. All humans are subject to yielding to temptation. Some devise ways to resist it. Most fail. Some resist it selectively. Most of them succeed. Loyalty is more reliable. Both faithfulness and loyalty are somewhat transactional, but people are inclined to recognize loyalty's transactional nature but not faithfulness's.

Additionally, trust, faithfulness and loyalty, like love and friendship, are subject to the erosive influence of time. Circumstances change over time. Highly emotional states, such as love, do not continue forever unchanged. They may endure, but they change. That change should be taken into account. Judgmental people often are not capable of adjusting to changed circumstances. They think commitments are carved in stone. I prefer flexible people. They're sometimes hard to live with, but they recognize that an important aspect of intelligence is the ability to recognize and adapt to changed circumstances.

In my profession we rely more on self interest. Individuals, groups, nations even, can more safely be trusted if their self interest is involved, assuming they can be relied on to act rationally. Even trust based on self interest, however, must recognize that self interest can change as circumstances change. That's why most treaties, contracts and even laws or constitutions have provisions for amendment or expiration. In the case of a drunk, rational action is problematic, even unlikely. The temptation is too strong and the will is too weak. The addiction impedes rational, self-interested behavior. An egomaniac cannot be trusted to act rationally. They are often unable to distinguish between self interest and ego and expect always to be forgiven or to be able to cover up their unreliability.

"I have sworn on the altar of God eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

__ Thomas Jefferson


Dreamcatcher__ 87M
7020 posts
6/12/2016 10:21 am

let's see if we can go to [blog endorsebdsm]


Dreamcatcher__ 87M
7020 posts
5/28/2016 7:24 am

Quoting Hiedyn: our lives go much more smoothly when we ask little of others and just accept what they choose to give with grace.

A good philosophy, and one I agree with as far as it goes. What happens, however, if we seek elsewhere what they choose not to give and, rather than accepting your formulation, they feel betrayed? It then seems to come down to a conversation and negotiation, if both parties are willing to converse and negotiate: thus my contention that faithfulness is transactional.


Dreamcatcher__ 87M
7020 posts
5/28/2016 7:11 am

    Quoting  :

I find it interesting that the concept of faithfulness varies between cultures, thus the cultural acceptance of the institution of the mistress, which in places like France or Italy seems only to become a problem when it comes up against American puritanism. Isn't asking for faithfulness a confirmation of its transactional nature? It is genetically dominant in the female, but secondary in the male. The transaction is: I give you sex, you give me faithfulness. Unfortunately it is referenced tangentially but repressed rather than codified in the Judeo-Christian holy books and thus not in common law. Instead it comes out as: I give you housekeeping, you give me security plus faithfulness. Basically a pseudo-economic transaction. Not something you find in most genetic codes. If there is a mutually agreeable exchange of love and sexual gratification, the former is recognized but not the latter in any American code I am familiar with, tho it does seem to be a part of the genetic code.

I have the greatest respect for your intellect and your opinion, so feel free to continue to question or disagree however you choose. I will not take offense. I enjoy reasoned debate, but I am here to learn, not to lecture.


Dreamcatcher__ 87M
7020 posts
5/21/2016 8:49 pm

    Quoting  :

Don't feel bad. I'm still working it out myself. Take a look at Doc's link OtherTrust the Invisible, Un_Necessary Burden. It provides an innovative framework for looking at the issue of trust.


Dreamcatcher__ 87M
7020 posts
5/21/2016 8:44 pm

    Quoting Doc_Sonar:
    Yes, it could sound like that Chinese saying, DC. Just ~ I wasn't damning it with faint praise.

    Suppose I could have been clearer, as in: "this attracted my attention and made me wanna' learn more about your views on trust, etc., because I also have an unconventional take," or some such.

    OtherTrust the Invisible, Un_Necessary Burden

    It - the workings of Trust - is still interesting to me.

    BD~
    P
Thanks for leaving the link, Doc. It expresses an approach I've been trying haphazardly and desultorily without much success because I hadn't thought it through.


Doc_Sonar 66M
24589 posts
5/21/2016 6:58 am

    Quoting Dreamcatcher__:
    Reminiscent of the inscrutable Chinese blessing/curse... "May you live in interesting times?"

    namaste~
Yes, it could sound like that Chinese saying, DC. Just ~ I wasn't damning it with faint praise.

Suppose I could have been clearer, as in: "this attracted my attention and made me wanna' learn more about your views on trust, etc., because I also have an unconventional take," or some such.

OtherTrust the Invisible, Un_Necessary Burden

It - the workings of Trust - is still interesting to me.

BD~
P

Doc_Sonar

I advocate Simplicity, Patience & Compassion...to the extent that doing so won't threaten or harm My boundaries or Me. ~ Doc_Sonar


Breathe Deeply~
Peace


Dreamcatcher__ 87M
7020 posts
5/20/2016 9:48 pm

Reminiscent of the inscrutable Chinese blessing/curse... "May you live in interesting times?"

namaste~


Dreamcatcher__ 87M
7020 posts
5/20/2016 9:32 pm

    Quoting quietroar:
    My ex was not faithful or trustworthy but he was loyal to me, however not our marriage. There is a difference there in that after we parted ways, he remained loyal to me and our friendship. Many things changed between us but never that feeling of his commitment to me- a separate entity from the relationship of the marriage. I must think about this. That word "loyal" is a very power one.
Loyalty is a powerful force in my life.

I'm not introspective, so I'm not good at analyzing myself. I suppose trusting people has not been one of my strong suits. I have, however, always been fiercely loyal to the people I care about.

I'm gregarious, but also a private person. That's why this blog contains some of my thoughts, but almost no revealing information about me.


Dreamcatcher__ 87M
7020 posts
5/20/2016 9:09 pm

    Quoting marshamay:
    this part -- An egomaniac cannot be trusted to act rationally. They are often unable to distinguish between self interest and ego and expect always to be forgiven or to be able to cover up their unreliability.
    - they are often enabled by their admirers acting on their own self interest
More often a muddled or simplistic view of their self interest. Enablers aren't generally deeper thinkers than their shallow heroes.


Dreamcatcher__ 87M
7020 posts
5/20/2016 9:05 pm

    Quoting  :

Fortunately, a recovered alcoholic can be the most trusted and loyal friend a person could have. I've never encountered a recovered egomaniac.


quietroar 59F
9647 posts
5/20/2016 11:14 am

My ex was not faithful or trustworthy but he was loyal to me, however not our marriage. There is a difference there in that after we parted ways, he remained loyal to me and our friendship. Many things changed between us but never that feeling of his commitment to me- a separate entity from the relationship of the marriage. I must think about this. That word "loyal" is a very power one.


marshamay 35F
5934 posts
5/20/2016 10:33 am

this part -- An egomaniac cannot be trusted to act rationally. They are often unable to distinguish between self interest and ego and expect always to be forgiven or to be able to cover up their unreliability.
- they are often enabled by their admirers acting on their own self interest


Doc_Sonar 66M
24589 posts
5/20/2016 9:54 am

Interesting read!

BD~
P

Doc_Sonar

I advocate Simplicity, Patience & Compassion...to the extent that doing so won't threaten or harm My boundaries or Me. ~ Doc_Sonar


Breathe Deeply~
Peace



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